Forum Link: Original Post

Resident Meeting with Robin Linden
Topic: Changes To The Events Calendar
Note: The exact date of this is probably wrong, Robin posted it on the forums on 4/25/05, but said it happened "last week".

You = Robin Linden

Daniel Linden: Some of what we hoped to achieve by revising the calendar wasn't in the version that went live.
Daniel Linden: So we're playing catch-up, and making more repairs.
Daniel Linden: The status is as follows: Estate owners can now use their access list to name Residents who may post events.
Daniel Linden: Linden-owned parcels are beginning to appear as postable locations, with a fuller list on the way.
Travis Lambert: Dainel - if I may interject - you understand that the estate tools will only benefit those owning estates?
Barbarra Blair: which is hardly anyone.
Musimba Yellowknife: I was wondering if they will be applied to regular land owners as well
Daniel Linden: A big fix is in the works for non-Estate owners -- you'll be able to use your Friends as event hosts; those with whom you are 'friends' will be able to post on your land.
Cocoanut Koala: good
Barbarra Blair: What is the point of this anyhow?
Travis Lambert: excellent workaround
Musimba Yellowknife: Goody. Another download
DebbieAnn Fairplay: to regulate teh Event Board
Barbarra Blair: Why were the changes made?
DebbieAnn Fairplay: *smile*
Wags Manimal: when do you expect that to roll out Daniel?
Daniel Linden: That fix will arrive mid-week....after a bit of testing.
Wags Manimal: *nods*
Wags Manimal: thanks
Daniel Linden: We're also going to fix the absolute 24-hour issue that many of you have brought to our attention -- mid-week, likely.
Travis Lambert: /Yay!
Barbarra Blair: why were the changes made?
Wags Manimal: That's great to hear Daniel
Daniel Linden: If, for whatever reason, the Friends list doesn't work....we'll put in a web page where you can simply name the approved Residents -- that's our back-up plan to make sure this trouble isn't too protracted.
Musimba Yellowknife: A back up plan. Not used to that
Travis Lambert: Unless there are technical reasons - the webpage might actually be better, Daniel
Barbarra Blair: Why were these changes made? What was the problem that you were trying to fix???
Cocoanut Koala: echoes barbarra's question
DebbieAnn Fairplay: BARBARRA IM him your questions
DebbieAnn Fairplay: maybe he can't see it
Daniel Linden: Ultimately, these revisions are designed to keep the calendar usable while we work out what a new, from the ground calendar will look like.
Musimba Yellowknife: There was a problem, but it was fixed by creating a bigger problem
Wynterfrost White: no offense, but i've had more problems since Linden Labs has been doing all their updates and patches than I did when I first downloaded and installed it
You: Barbarra the changes were made to address the spamming of the calendar
Barbarra Blair: That is still happening.
Barbarra Blair: The land owners do that.
Travis Lambert: Correct - through the subdivide-512 trick
You: which is why eventually we want to put in a better filtering system
You: we recognize these changes are short term
Cocoanut Koala: you do mean that friends will be able to post events, don't you, rather than just residents?
Cienna Samiam: I wish there were more natural searching of text content in those event listings. But it would also be nice to remove every 'tringo' entry as a preference.
Daniel Linden: One of the questions I have for you: what is the right number for events? Is three too few? Do we need to revise that upwards?
Barbarra Blair: What if you want to allow ANYONE to hold events?
Demitri Patel: I posted an idea for an intern solution
Demitri Patel:
Barbarra Blair: What if you wnat to have several events in one day?
Cienna Samiam: Well...
Timmy Night: I think 3 is too few
You: so what is the right number?
Cienna Samiam: I know many clubs have events throughout the day.
DebbieAnn Fairplay: 5
Travis Lambert: 3 events seems too few - however - more only if you can hard limit it for everyone equally
Cienna Samiam: Seems unfair to restrict them when they're just trying to compete and get business.
Cienna Samiam: But where do you draw the line?
DebbieAnn Fairplay: 5
Cienna Samiam: One an hour? Total of 24 in any one day?
Wags Manimal: *Raises a paw* I have a question
DebbieAnn Fairplay: 5 is a nice line
Daniel Linden: Five has come up before -- is that a better level?
Musimba Yellowknife: 1 event per hour seems to be a good limit for any club
Timmy Night: Here is my reasoning: As a land owner, I put up on the events calendar those events that my staff would like to hold - currently, I am limited to 3 events per day
DebbieAnn Fairplay: OMG
Musimba Yellowknife: 3 per day is too few
Cocoanut Koala: Why draw a line - the more events, the merrier
Barbarra Blair: Better than 1 for sure.
Travis Lambert: 5 is tolerable, at least in my situation
DebbieAnn Fairplay: we'd have NOTING BUT TRINGO if that was the case
Barbarra Blair: WHy do you wnat to limit the number of events?
Sidra Stern: yes i dont understand why the limit
Cienna Samiam: So allow us to filter out the kinds of events we do not wish to see.
Barbarra Blair: WE don't have enough events as it is.
Cocoanut Koala: i ditto all the above
Cienna Samiam: I would happily put the trio 'ingoes' in my filter.
Timmy Night: And we are not talking about Tringo or Slingo - we are talking about events like best avatar
Sidra Stern: let the people decide where they want to go
Travis Lambert: Well - guys - I'm not in favor of limits of any kind. But I can swallow it if it's purely a temporary measure
Demitri Patel: what kind of ideas have you had as far as a redesign of the events callender?
Musimba Yellowknife: A filter that removes certain events from the listing
Barbarra Blair: or discussion groups etc.
DebbieAnn Fairplay: that would be a good idea
Timmy Night: So, I would have to agree with Travis, 5 would be a decent number
Barbarra Blair: Exactly.
Cienna Samiam: I understand, but you have to know people do not necessarily operate on noble principle.
Daniel Linden: There has been a longstanding interest in setting a coded limit (you'll remember that the old Event Rules actually stated ONE per day)....
Barbarra Blair: I don't see the point in having a limit.
Musimba Yellowknife: Type in "Tringo" and see every event except the Tringo events
Travis Lambert: That's true, Daniel - which actually - raises another question
Travis Lambert: The problem was - the rules were very nebulous - open to interpretation
Wynterfrost White: ok, someone plz explain to me why property owners cant/shouldnt have as many events as they want?
Travis Lambert: by Residens and Lindens
Wags Manimal: Why not just put a mute on the events like you can do with Chat. screen out what you don't want to see
Musimba Yellowknife: Don't know. We pay for the land.
Daniel Linden: The main reason for having a limit is to deal with the limitations of the current Event Calendar -- it lack even rudimentary sorting, so an over-full calendar is all but unsuable, and everyone's events are lost in the noise.
You: one reason is that people have been using the event calendar to advertise. as Daniel says without sorting
Travis Lambert: True - but filters would take care of that, no?
You: the events are getting lost in the spam
Musimba Yellowknife: Filters?
You: ideally a limit creates a de-facto filter.
Sidra Stern: i think we can read pretty well
Barbarra Blair: There are very few events other than gambling.
Sidra Stern: we can limit our own
Cienna Samiam: With respect, perhaps you should look at re-writing it to be more robust? Include filtering agents and such? Really bring it up to speed for the need of the residents?
You: yes, and filters is where we'd like to go
Sidra Stern: and not go to where we dont want to go
You: but we can't do that overnight
Daniel Linden: Travis: Yes, filters are good and we're going to do that -- but we needed to do something until that gets done.
Musimba Yellowknife: Simple to create a way to FILTER out certain search terms
Cienna Samiam: Ah.
Cienna Samiam: Interim.
Cienna Samiam: Hmm...
Travis Lambert: Well - it only creates a de-facto filter if everyone follows similar guidelines - inherently, they wont - its a big world with lots of different kinds of people
DebbieAnn Fairplay: I think the limit works for now
Timmy Night: Why shouldn't a land owner be able to hold a grand opening event for their venue or say, a vendor open house?
You: they can
You: we got rid of most of the rules around types of events
Barbarra Blair: You can do it, you just can't tell people about it.
Timmy Night: Not according to the rules - I cannot post such an event on the events calendar
Cienna Samiam: Depends on how long 'for now' is... if this is going to be a considerable period of time, I'd like to see more flexibility.
You: because we DO think people can read and choose what they want to do
Musimba Yellowknife: So Linden Labs decided to create economic problems for some of the land owners while they work on the filter
Cienna Samiam: Bah. I don't assume negative intent. It is silly and counter-intuitive.
You: how so Musimba?
Barbarra Blair: not to mention taking away any incentives to hold non-profit events
You: how so Barbarra?
Musimba Yellowknife: Some clubs depend on having events every few hours.
Musimba Yellowknife: Without the announcements, they bring in fewer people
Barbarra Blair: You can't offer prizes or anything now unless you have lots of personal cash.
Musimba Yellowknife: Less Traffic. Less Money
Barbarra Blair: Which means you can't compete.
Cienna Samiam: But it does seem since the clubs no longer are supported, we've been over-run with the trio ingoes and 'events' that are less event (i.e., social gathering with purpose) and just random advertisements to draw dwellers.
Wynterfrost White: ever since the January changes, so many places have simply disappeared, some of them were great places too
Cienna Samiam: Which doesn't seem right to me.
Travis Lambert: That's true - at least if your goal is to be somewhere on the favorite places list - its impossible to do so without at least 4 well attended events per day
Barbarra Blair: Sure, we all predicted t hat only "pot" games would survive.
Musimba Yellowknife: I only do one event per week, usually, but I understand basic economics
Travis Lambert: The current restrictions - are allowing those who have the luxury of bending the rules to dominate
Cienna Samiam: I wish I could have been here before that change. The social scene now is fairly striated....
Barbarra Blair: It was much more fun before
Wynterfrost White: well, you can always pay to advertise,, on ebay or whatever that was? right?
Barbarra Blair: When events other than contests were supported
Sidra Stern: ahhh well thats the point wynt
Sidra Stern: isnt it?
Timmy Night: Have you been out to eBay to look at the ads?
Cienna Samiam: If you're not into being sexual or playing tringo or getting your furry on, you're pretty well S.O.L. And that is truly a shame.
Sidra Stern: now we get to the reason
Barbarra Blair: No one looks at e-bay.
Travis Lambert: I've been making use of advertising since January
Barbarra Blair: WE look in game.
Timmy Night: I haven't - why should I pay for advertising on an outside website?
Musimba Yellowknife: Most of the Sponsored Links are purchased by One person
Wags Manimal: I'm still rather new to the whole SL thing here as I've not been on a year. but I can say that I have seen a lot of clubs come and go. it would be a shame to loose more of these fun clubs because they could nto post all the events they wanted to.
Cocoanut Koala: barbarra is right
Travis Lambert: Its helpful as an augmentation - but i couldn't depend on it
You: the ads run in world
Travis Lambert: Mine do, yes
You: under sponsored links
Cocoanut Koala: i dont see them
Cocoanut Koala: i depend on the events calendar
Blake Rockwell: I hear alot of feedback on forums about Clubs and building on residential areas also..I think zoning is is necessary in Real life.
You: you can also put them on the site
Barbarra Blair: What we need to do is set up a resident run events calender, but that wouldnt' take care of the prize money and so on.
Travis Lambert: Sponsored links aren't that effectual, Robin - at least that's the general perception
Barbarra Blair: No one looks outside the game!
Cocoanut Koala: The events calendar is worth 10 ebays or sl.coms.
Wags Manimal: but everyone comes on and looks at the event cal on here not the websige
Travis Lambert: And out of game tools are relatively useless
Daniel Linden: It sounds to me like the real need is for advertising options beyond the event calendar? Is that a fair assesment?
Travis Lambert: That's the problem - why someone hasn't come up with a replacement
Cocoanut Koala: no
Timmy Night: Agreed, Travis
Cienna Samiam: In all honesty, I never look outside the game for event information.
Barbarra Blair: That is half of it
Cocoanut Koala: The real need is an event calender that reflects our needs.
You: some people have had pretty good luck with them Travis. maybe it depends on the business
Cienna Samiam: And if I can't find what I would enjoy when I'm here, I log off.
Cocoanut Koala: what cienna said
Barbarra Blair: But what we need is someone to recoup our land fees and offer events that are NOT tringo.
Travis Lambert: True, Robin - only speaking in my realm
Cienna Samiam: So being able to find information here is important to me.
Timmy Night: No, the Events calendar needs filtering tools for the residents
Musimba Yellowknife: I suggested to LL to only allow each person to purchase one sponsored link per auction, but the suggestion was ignored even though a couple of the Lindens I spoke with though it was a great idea
Timmy Night: Question is, was the old system really broken or did someone just think it was?
Cienna Samiam: And being able to be notified when events I'm interested are happening without HAVING to look would be even more important and enjoyable.
Eanya Dalek: advertizing outside the game is fine if some want to but it shouldnt be necessary in order to survive as a business
Barbarra Blair: The old system was better.
Barbarra Blair: Under the old system people went to the FUN events.
Travis Lambert: Well - the old system - in June was best
Cocoanut Koala: i agree - I don't need to be saved from having to read through too much.
Cienna Samiam: Agents. Filters. And making residents less dependent upon swimming the ocean of the calendar.
Wynterfrost White: i know i left several groups coz i got tired of being spammed to come to the 'best bare breasts contests' and such
Wynterfrost White: and no, i never go to ebay
Eanya Dalek: me either
Travis Lambert: Filters would really solve many folk's complaints - and force us to categorize our events properly
Cienna Samiam: Yes.
Cocoanut Koala: and i wouldn't even use the filter!
Cienna Samiam: Win-win.
Timmy Night: It costs enough real money to play this game, let along use outside advertising
Musimba Yellowknife: No reason to bother bidding on Sponsored Links if the same person is going to win most of them
Cocoanut Koala: i want to see ALL the events, and make my choice!
Sidra Stern: yea me too
Cienna Samiam: So you set no filters.
Sidra Stern: i want to see them all
Sidra Stern: and i want to choose
Cocoanut Koala: but filters would be good
Cienna Samiam: But you should be able to decide that for yourself.
Cocoanut Koala: exactly
Zenny Rhodes: I never thought there was that much on an events calander to need filtering
Cienna Samiam: Here's the thing...
Wynterfrost White: how much to go to the 'sponsored' links? it all comes down to money doesnt it?
Timmy Night: yes, why are we not allowed to actually choose
Barbarra Blair: And I want to go to something besides contests, for crying out loud.
Wags Manimal: We are all big boys and girls. we sould be allowed to make our choices.
Ralek Queso: have you ever considering charging a small fee for posting an event and increasing daily dwell payments?
Barbarra Blair: NO NO NO
Cienna Samiam: Filters are not a mandatory functionality. They are purely selective. You Opt-In for what you want to see and Opt-Out for what you don't.
Travis Lambert: hrm - why not, Barb?
Timmy Night: I keep hearing that this is OUR game, that the Lindens don't want to be micro-governing, yet that's what I see
Barbarra Blair: It is not fair to restrict everyting to people with CASH
DebbieAnn Fairplay: that would be funny Ralek
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with barbarra
Ralek Queso: there's one thing I always disliked about the events calender
Demitri Patel: are there any public venues for events on mature land?
Cienna Samiam: The benefit is that you don't have to come up with something that 'will make everyone happy', because that is impossible.
Cocoanut Koala: VERY unfair if you have to buy yuour right to post events
Ralek Queso: its free - and free advertising rarely works
Trep Cosmo: Because events cost enough in prize money ast it is. If you impose a cost to even post the event, all the rare good events will surely die.
Cienna Samiam: Rather, you create a system that allows people to determine for themselves what makes them happy.
Baron Grayson: It would be interesting to see SL introduce a way to give residents the option of creating out own calendars by allowing a browser to be used ingame. There are already very innovative webpages that are used through the game such as snapzilla with ports,
Ralek Queso: you up the dwell payments
Baron Grayson: it's own rating system and much more
Cocoanut Koala: imagine having to pay to post about "Captions!"
Barbarra Blair: THere are 10000 players, and only enough events to accommodate 100.
Baron Grayson: someone could script subject oriented event calendars
Daniel Linden: Demitri -- I haven't looked at the list of venues. It will be a variety to locations -- I'm sure some are Mature.
Musimba Yellowknife: This is a Mature area
Cocoanut Koala: The events calendar is one of the greatest things this game has going. Makes no sense to take it away in any measure.
Timmy Night: We can look up places with keywords, why not events?
Daniel Linden: Sure enough -- this is mature~!
Travis Lambert: Daniel - one question that hasn't been discussed - is the solution for the "512 gaming" problem still in the works?
CrazyBud Weary: I dont understand need for filters when you can search the event list now
Baron Grayson: If SL is to grow...more power needs to be in our hands and not have us dependant on SL for our own fun
Cienna Samiam: An aside -- you charge people to have events and you will kill this society. That includes paying to list them.
Timmy Night: I already spend L$90 a week to have my land, plus 2 leased properties listed in the find places
Demitri Patel: if you charge for events you will kill any events that are posted just for fun.
Barbarra Blair: IT is already hard enough to have events.
Musimba Yellowknife: Few people here have even a single L
Ralek Queso: they already charge for placing land under teh places tab
Timmy Night: Plus I spend almost L$9000 a week on events
Dan Linden is offline
Wynterfrost White: i think, no, i know i will never become more than the minimum land owner. i dont think i would want to have to pay for everything i do
Barbarra Blair: If you don't own a lot of land, it is nearly impossible.
Cienna Samiam: Crazy -- you can't search events for 'type' outside of the basic groups like 'contest', etc. Events here are much more diverse than the current system allows you to search for....
Timmy Night: Why can't I put all of my events on the calendar?
Cienna Samiam: You know...
Wynterfrost White: who gets all the money for all these postings anyway? who comes out ahead in the end?
Barbarra Blair: I have the impression taht the Linden's just don't get it, really.
DebbieAnn Fairplay: wonder if anyone notices that they aren't giving the Lindens a chance to say anything
Wags Manimal: you list all the places....all the folks on SL. what's wrong with listing all the events for free? do a search like you would for friends or stuff.
Ralek Queso: the people who attract more residents, if they up the daily dwell payements
Wynterfrost White: it sure isnt your average joe user
Travis Lambert: Most folks don't make money - I typically burn thru about 10-15k a month, which i think is low comparatively
Cocoanut Koala: i have the impression its a change in order to eventuyally charge for it and make money off of it, which means only the rich can do events.
Cienna Samiam: Why not just have a 'business calendar' for registered businesses only and a 'personal' calendar where pretty much anything goes. Allow filtering by boolean term or category and let it fly.
Musimba Yellowknife: I've heard that Linden Labs hires economists, but these people that LL asks for advise seemed to have skipped Macroeconomics 101.
Barbarra Blair: for sure
Timmy Night: I think the Lindens get it, but instead of focusing their energies on stability, they went and "fixed" something that wasn't broken
Barbarra Blair: what he said
Daniel Linden: None of the changes we've made have been to enable charging.....
You: cocoanut I can truthfully say we haven't even thought about charging for events listings
Cocoanut Koala: I have even thought of an event to post myself, at my house
Cocoanut Koala: that's good to know, Robin.
Daniel Linden: I don't recall that ever even coming up in disucssion.
You: the folks that work on bug fixing weren't involved in the event calendar changes
You: It's really a balancing act
Travis Lambert: The biggest thing I have the problem with is the unfairness. As much as it would suck - i could even deal with 2 events per day - if the same rules applied to everyone
Musimba Yellowknife: I suggest contacting someone at the IMF for real advise. This was considered one of the worlds most stable economies last year. Not anymore
Cienna Samiam: I think I would like to see some manner of personal information management here. That would include calendaring in the traditional sense.
Cocoanut Koala: I have not seen this much of this "using it to spam" thing
Barbarra Blair: Why do the Linden's want to limit the number of events?
Blake Rockwell: A linden dollar to u.s. dollar balancing act
You: we had so many complaints before about event listings that weren't real events so more and more rules were put in place
Ralek Queso: I dont see what's so terrible about charging a small amount for listing an event
Timmy Night: I still haven't gotten an answer from the Lindens, was the old calendar really broken or did someone just think it was?
You: so we've tried to eliminate some of the rules
Ralek Queso: just charge for it and take away most posting restrictions
Cocoanut Koala: first, it wouldn't solve any spam problem, ralek
Musimba Yellowknife: A couple fo clubs posted more than one event at the same time, but that was the only problem
You: at the same time it's important to have some sort of limits, or the calendar is filled with advertising
Cocoanut Koala: second, it would penalize club owners and entertainers
Timmy Night: And I wish people would get over this idea of spam
Cienna Samiam: Charging for events will kill what community and culture remains. Period.
Barbarra Blair: That would let the rich people buy up the events the same way they buy up the land.
Cocoanut Koala: exactly.
Cienna Samiam: And class envy solves nothing. (Ok, afk for real now)
You: and then we had the folks who posted events every 15 minutes meaning that it was very difficult to find other events
Ralek Queso: the calendar will always be filled with adversting
DebbieAnn Fairplay: lets kill the Lets Charge for events I dont make ANY money here already
Travis Lambert: What about charging to *post* an event - i mean - a nominal fee, like $25
Musimba Yellowknife: The Event Calender might have to many Events advertised?
You: so people started using caps making it even harder
Timmy Night: I advertise my venue through the events calendar because its the only cost effective means of doing so
Ralek Queso: its an advertising tool
Wynterfrost White: Ive never heard anyone saying anything about the event calendar being spammed - except for the Lindens
Barbarra Blair: So why not create an advertising tool that is NOT the events calendar?
You: the events calendar didn't have too many events advertised. Too many of the events weren't events,
DebbieAnn Fairplay: maybe you should have an ADVERTISING Event board and charge for that
You: they were ads.
Cocoanut Koala: I have been here only two months, and I never considered it spammed.
Timmy Night: Because that would be logical Barbarra
You: people got to the event and it was an ad
Cocoanut Koala: And if they WERE just ads, I would know that and not go!
Musimba Yellowknife: I didn't notice that problem at all
Ralek Queso: cause free advertising leads to bad advertising as shown by the events calendar
You: there are rudimentary filters in place using the categories
Timmy Night: All events are ads
Musimba Yellowknife: I only saw events
Barbarra Blair: me neither
You: but we all agree they're inadequate
Baron Grayson: or charging for events that have to do with commercial events. Personal events could be free
Travis Lambert: Robin - those filters we have today are..... kinda laughable (no offence)
Cocoanut Koala: not sure what the difference is between commercial and personal
Timmy Night: Get it through your heads, all events are advertisements for the venues they are held at
You: Musimba, others felt it was a serious problem. Again -- a balancing act.
Wynterfrost White: If you go to an event that isnt an event, you simply leave. word of mouth usually stops that sorta thing real fast
Sidra Stern: dont fix what isnt broke
Baron Grayson: commercial store grand openings and yard sales for example
Wynterfrost White: just like when you deal with any company out in real
Baron Grayson: events that generate money
Barbarra Blair: Some people like those, though.
Musimba Yellowknife: I never heard of a complaint, except for the many Tringo events
Cocoanut Koala: i go to yard sales for entertainment
Timmy Night: Why shouldn't people know that a new mall or store has opened?
Sidra Stern: me too
Cocoanut Koala: those are hard categories to tease out
Baron Grayson: yes but you would be the goer not the person making money
Timmy Night: I get so tired of the anti-business mentality
Wynterfrost White: the things ya'll should be looking at is when places get 'bombed' or trashed when the different owners get griefers, not the silly event board
Barbarra Blair: My only complaint about Tringo is that there should be just as many other types of events.
Travis Lambert: Once concern I have - is that a many of the folks that complain about events - don't like events period. They're not a good judge of how the community feels
Sidra Stern: yes wynt i totally agree
Cocoanut Koala: I am an events-loving new player
Cocoanut Koala: and I want to see them all
Timmy Night: It is my choice what events, if any I go to
You: OK - so it's clear that everyone has strong feelings about this.
Timmy Night: Why not allow others that free choice?
DebbieAnn Fairplay: just a little...
Ralek Queso: Barbarra, why? people seem to like tringo and event hosts go for the lower common denominator
Wynterfrost White: but that has nothing to do with the calander, tringo is what many like, so many set it up
Musimba Yellowknife: Perhaps LL should let the community vote on some of the major social changes a week before forcing them on us
Barbarra Blair: We had much better events when the Lindens sponsored non-contests.
You: I've gotten some good ideas for fixing the problem from Travis and Elle and a few others.
Timmy Night: That's an understatement Robin
Timmy Night: And you also knew that it wouldn't be resolved today
You: Would it make sense to have a few working meetings to come up with more solutions so we can build a useful calendar?
Timmy Night: There wasn't a problem until you guys tried to "fix" it
Travis Lambert: That would be wonderful, Robin
Cocoanut Koala: It's bad enough there is no more sponsoring non-education events, but to charge to post them on the calender would be worse.
Wynterfrost White: what is the problem? if someone doesnt want to go to something, they just dont go
Barbarra Blair: It would make sense to come up with meeting to try and get some more interesting events going again.
Travis Lambert: If we had working meetings and Dialog - I'd feel much more like I had a real voice in the process
You: Timmy - not everyone agreed with you on that.
Musimba Yellowknife: OSince this year started, too many problems were created
Ralek Queso: most people are only attracted to events where they can make some money
Timmy Night: All of my employees are required to have contests
Wynterfrost White: you got that right Ralek
Barbarra Blair: hence tringo
Ralek Queso: they are not intested in what some people consider interesting events
You: So why don't those of you who would like to work on this some more send me an email and we'll put a group together to look at this
Cocoanut Koala: Tringo is a good thing.
Timmy Night: Yet, I am the only one who can set up their events
DebbieAnn Fairplay: cause that's the only way some of us CAN make money
Travis Lambert: Well - not true in my case, Ral All the events I do are not the norm
Wynterfrost White: prices were supposed to come down on everything, but so far have not seen that happen much
Ralek Queso: just look at the Ice Dragon
Timmy Night: I am now limited to 3 events per day
Ralek Queso: I said most people Travis
Timmy Night: Which is idiotic
Wags Manimal: I would volenteer for the group Robin
Sky Everett: I dissagree Ralek, I think most people simply want to have fun.. the choice of what sort of fun should be left to the individual to decide.
Eanya Dalek the person who suggested charging to advertise events sur efanned the flames
DebbieAnn Fairplay: E-MAIL Robin or IM?
Timmy Night: And not why I pay US$135 per month to play this game
Cocoanut Koala: I would as well.
Demitri Patel: I would like to be a part of that group
Ralek Queso: Sky, spend a day stopping by all events, like Nigel used to do - the ones that have good atendence
Musimba Yellowknife: What are the chances of LL listening if the senior members stated I had great ideas and then ignored them
Wynterfrost White: i go to the events for the fun and the people, but i dont mind a lil bit of extra cash now and again
Ralek Queso: offer prizes of some sort or the opportunity to win money
Cienna Samiam: Well, it is a tangle, that's obvious from the few here. I think the business community deserves a tightly organized place to advertise. But I also think there is a need for boundaries in advertising so you can find what you want to find without having
Travis Lambert: Robin & Daniel - is there still relief in the works to prevent people from having more than the allowed number of events at a particular venue?
Cienna Samiam: to wade through 30 breast contests and 75 tringo parties, etc.
Cocoanut Koala: filter, then
Timmy Night: No event that I hold pays out less than L$500 of my own money - why shouldn't I be allowed to post them on the events calendar?
Musimba Yellowknife: I don't mind wading through 30 breasts
Cienna Samiam: Precisely.
DebbieAnn Fairplay: Robin which e-mail addy should we send you notice too?
Sky Everett: My point is that it should be left to a personal choice- what ever entices someone to attend- I don't want filters, nor do I want restraint on choices. I want to see all events and make a personal choice.
Cienna Samiam: Filters. So people can decide for themselves what they do and do not wish to see.
You: or just IM
Daniel Linden: The event limit will remain per 512m2 for now....we'll look to see if that size should be modfied.
Barbarra Blair: Sky, you could just not use the filters.
Cienna Samiam: Sky, you don't get it. Filters do not restrict unless you tell them to...
Travis Lambert: Daniel - that's not what i mean
Cienna Samiam: It is a preference. A setting.
Daniel Linden: If I can step back for a momnet -- could you guys give me a show of 'ayes' if you'd like the limit increased to FIVE?
Sky Everett: understood.
Barbarra Blair: ANd then you'd have to break up your land, which would hurt your traffic rating.
Cienna Samiam: Aye.
Ralek Queso: I also think most if not all calendar restrictions should go, cause if its automated people with resources will find a way to go around them
Blake Rockwell: Hell Jenna
Cocoanut Koala: aye
Barbarra Blair: AYE
Trep Cosmo: Aye
Travis Lambert: aye
Blake Rockwell: Hello rather
Musimba Yellowknife: Aye, but not good enough
Sky Everett: yes.. *raises hand*
Sidra Stern: no limit
Dnate Mars: Nay
Baron Grayson: It would be like the streaming Inventory filters sky and would actually give everything the most freedom in making choices
Cocoanut Koala: i also add, "but not good enough"
Baron Grayson: everyone*
Barbarra Blair: ditto
Wynterfrost White: No offense Robin and Daniel, but to me if LL keeps going the way they are, they are going to have more mad members than happy ones
Wags Manimal: Yes Daniel as long as there is a group to make changes like Robin Suggested
Timmy Night: Will there be a transcript of this meeting available, Robin & Daniel?
DebbieAnn Fairplay: that's why their doing this I think
Demitri Patel: aye, but the longterm solution should include unlimited events and a better callendar system
Wynterfrost White: Even the person that can only afford to pay the 10 for basic feels they should have some rights
You: I'll clean it up if it's ok with you and post it
Sky Everett: Understood- I'm only saying I dont want limitations.
Cocoanut Koala: hear hear, Wynterfrost!
Cienna Samiam: Actually, I'm thrilled that Linden seeks out the opinions and wants to hear from us. Most out there do not.
Timmy Night: What do you mean "clean it up"?
You: I'll put it in the events forum
Daniel Linden: Yes, the current calendar is a stop gap -- we want -- NEED-- to create a new calendar from the ground up.
Cocoanut Koala: me too, Cienna
Cienna Samiam: Agreed.
Cienna Samiam: Strongly.
Dnate Mars: I agree
Timmy Night: That always sounds like censoring
You: just take out the messages that someone just logged in, that sort of stuff
You: Timmy I'm not into censoring.
Timmy Night: I didn't say you were
Demitri Patel: the new callendar needs to be able to handle unlimited events
Barbarra Blair: I've never seen such a message--
Daniel Linden: The ayes, by the way, I believe have carried it. We'll get the numbered bumped to five.
Timmy Night: I just wanted clarificiation
Cienna Samiam: Thank you.
Cocoanut Koala: ty!
Timmy Night: Thank you
Barbarra Blair: But that is not the real problem, you know.
Travis Lambert: Daniel - what I mean is - *IF* you have an event limit..... the per-parcel limit allows some to work around the limit, while most cannot.
Musimba Yellowknife: Five is a baby step, but a start
DebbieAnn Fairplay: I just have a feeling that if there is no limit you'll just leave the door open to more of the event you guys are tired of seeing
Travis Lambert: That's what i'm hoping for a workaround for
Cienna Samiam feels a long-winded forum post coming up.... -chuckle-
Barbarra Blair: So there needs to be an incentive to offer other kinds of events!
Ralek Queso: any kind of limit will be able to be worked around
Musimba Yellowknife: I don't want to see some good places dissappear because they are not allowed to post enough events
Baron Grayson: you mean like inworld universities
Wags Manimal: Thank yoU Daniel and Robin for listening here and taking some action right away. It's a start in the right direction for all of us.
Cocoanut Koala: yes
Barbarra Blair: Those, but also just book clubs and more imaginative things.
Timmy Night: I do feel like something was actually accomplished
Timmy Night: Though not enough
Musimba Yellowknife: I didn't notice, but were there any Nays to that vote before?
Wynterfrost White: How long until we find out what is decided? Until we find out when 'extra' events will have to be paid for and such?
Wags Manimal: it's a start Timmy
Travis Lambert: The limit couldn't be worked around if events were retstricted to Per-Sim
Baron Grayson: I admit if there were multiple postings of more educational things I would probably look at events more. As it is now I see tringo and hate to wade so I stop looking as much as I used to
Wags Manimal: are you also going to be able to fix the true 24 hour limit soon Daniel??
Timmy Night: I agree, Travis
Baron Grayson: filters would definately help
Timmy Night: and yes, its a start
Cienna Samiam: Well, if they could do everything at once, I'm guessing they would. A certain amount of patience and understanding is in order. Humans are still humans.
Daniel Linden: I understand your concern, Travis. Per-sim limits aren't feasible, but I'll keep an eye on things and see what changes might work.
Wynterfrost White: I know I will not have any plans to spend more than what I'm required to just to stay in the game myself.
Sky Everett: I completely agree Baron!
Ralek Queso: Travis, you sure? get pieces of land on other sims, put a landmark dispenser, voila
Barbarra Blair: WEll, at least Jeopardy is back! That's a start.
Bino Arbuckle is online
Daniel Linden: Yes, the 24-hour bug will be fixed -- likely mid- or late next week.
Wags Manimal: Thanks
Travis Lambert: Ok - but every day that you wait - that means a continuation of 10+ tringo events on the calendar from one location - and the rest of us can only post 3. That will seriously skew favorite places, not to mention nullifying some of the benefit of changes
DebbieAnn Fairplay: so which ideas you got from tonight do you feel strong about?
Daniel Linden: The "Friends can Post Events" fix will also arrive next week.
Timmy Night: I refuse to put my land in group land so as my employees can post events
Wynterfrost White: And i know if owners are going to have to pay to advertise an event, the cost is going to come down to all the people that wanted to attend the event, so looks like I'll just be visiting friends until I have to pay them to visit them or they have to pay
Barbarra Blair: So folks with a lot of Alts will be in the green, I guess.
Wynterfrost White: to visit with me on my property
Cienna Samiam: There is that, Travis. The longer it remains as it is, the more harm to free enterprise and level field competition there will be...
Eanya Dalek: It woudl be hilarious if Kirby the tringo creator showed up
Trimming Hedges: might be easier to just SAY the rules and then boot people who violate them, instead of enforcing it through code
Timmy Night: I have no problem paying L$50 to list an event - that's well worth it to get people to my complex
Musimba Yellowknife: Putting your land into group land can be dangerous. You may get kicked out of the group and then have no control over the land
Dnate Mars: but that would create a lot of overhead for LL
Travis Lambert: I'm just a small venue - I depend on being at the <ahem> bottom of the favorite places list - so my events get a decent turnout
Barbarra Blair: The Linden's don't want to have to monitor the calender. That I can understand.
You: Debbie we should follow up on filtering, better categories, and finding a better solution for advertising
You: to start
DebbieAnn Fairplay: that's good to hear
Musimba Yellowknife: A simple filter will help
Cienna Samiam: you know, here's a thought.... abit on the unorthodox side....
Trimming Hedges: requiring a posting fee is going to make events even more commercial -- events that don't make money will be much less likely to get posted
Cocoanut Koala: i think you bark up the wrong tree with that advertising distinction concept
Timmy Night: Travis, would you agree to an L$50 event listing fee? Do you think that's reasonable?
Blake Rockwell: Land access to event posters is a sabotage risk to the Club Owner in my opinion
Daniel Linden: Trimmin: The old calendar featured human-enforced rules....and that didn't really work very well.
Travis Lambert: I think that's very reasonable - not sure about everyone else tho
Barbarra Blair: Thanks' for listening, Daniel and Robin. I know we are a trying bunch.
Cocoanut Koala: I would not agree to that, Timmy.
Wags Manimal: SL already has too many fee's if you ask me
Dnate Mars: no, I don't think there should be any listing fee
Travis Lambert: Yes - thanks for putting up with me personally, Robin
Cienna Samiam: Google freely licenses their search technology.... have you considered looking at not reinventing the wheel for something like this?
Wynterfrost White: Dont start offering to pay for listing events ya'll, you'll start something you'll end up regretting even more later
Ralek Queso: they could use the money they get from event posting to up the daily dwell payments
Barbarra Blair: $50 is a whole weeks' stipend for a newbie!
Musimba Yellowknife: Any fee is unreasonable. Too many can not afford it as it is
You: what if there were listing fees that then were used to support events?
Daniel Linden: Cienna -- we're looking at a lot of solutions....
Ralek Queso: newbies dont own land
Musimba Yellowknife: Very few can afford it
DebbieAnn Fairplay: you mean you can't just write a progam that says, you posted 3 events today... POOF no more events for you?
Cocoanut Koala: I am opposed to any fees.
Travis Lambert: Even if it was just to post, Barbara? Or you mean - newbies posting events
Trimming Hedges: right now I sort of bounce along at about the same $ amount, my entire stipend goes into Captions, basically ... an extra $50 would be annoying.
Aliasi Stonebender: ... what do you mean, "up the dwell payments", L$ is basically fiat money anyway. :P
Wynterfrost White: It still wouldnt work out 'fairly' to those that dont have tons of money at their disposal
Dnate Mars: could we have a fee for listed events, but still have unlisted events?
Cienna Samiam: My honest opinion is that the path of listing fees leads to social and cultural demise.
Travis Lambert: true.... ok - good point
Cocoanut Koala: exactly - i don't need to have holding events become just one more thing i can't afford to do
Barbarra Blair: Let brains and imagination win, not cash.
Timmy Night: I get L$100 in dwell bonus with a decent event with 20 people, half of that to list an event is well worth it
DebbieAnn Fairplay: not to everyone Timmy?
Musimba Yellowknife: Few get that much dwell
Barbarra Blair: You already said thay you pour tons of cash into the game.
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Barbarra Blair: Most people cna't do that.
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Ralek Queso: Timmy, you would get more dwell payment if they used the listing fee to up it
Cocoanut Koala: I may have lots of imagination and no money.
Timmy Night: And that's after I pay L$500 to an employee and L$500 to pay for cash prizes
Cienna Samiam: It is not an effective control against listing, as the issue is not too many listing per se, but a somewhat egregious abuse of the spirit of the system.
Wynterfrost White: ahem, thats when the owners remember to pay their employees (some forget)
DebbieAnn Fairplay: and you only get 100 back that doesn't seem worth it
Timmy Night: What is the "spirit" of the system?
Trimming Hedges: you're trying to sort of legislate against morons and that's always chancy
Cienna Samiam: To provide information.
Wags Manimal: Too many fees for newbies. It turns them off to the game. This is supposed to be a fun place to come to. Right?
Timmy Night: information about what?
Cocoanut Koala: What Wags said.
Barbarra Blair: IF you are doing the same dang thing all day long, that is one event, not twelve.
DebbieAnn Fairplay: Right Wags
Trimming Hedges: wags and, in theory, just about free to play if they want it to be
Cienna Samiam: The purpose of the calendar is not to help you make money. It is to give people information on what is happening in the world.
Costella Eisenberg: ao off
Cienna Samiam: The problem is, most are using it as a tool to increase their income.
Sky Everett: Cienna.. I agree.
Travis Lambert: agree as well, Cienna
Cocoanut Koala: That's right - a democratic calendar makes for a vibrant world.
Timmy Night: I lose money every day by having people at my events
Cienna Samiam: Which is not its purpose.
Barbarra Blair: Well it has to be both things, of course.
Timmy Night: Who said that I am in it to make money?
Baron Grayson: Why is it such a problem with so many people are willing to pay a fee to hosts..thereby letting someone earn that money that SL would have it because it's not on that person's land that option is not used?
DebbieAnn Fairplay: what about them Ralek?
Blake Rockwell: Daniel, what is the current financial stability of Linden Labs to continue this game and progress it?
Wynterfrost White: nothing happens in this world except the contests and events, many dont care to create clothing or furniture or anything like that, many dont have the talent or the programs to do so
Dnate Mars: What is the main issue that most of you see with the current event listing?
Daniel Linden: I think we need to wrap this up shorly -- I don't want to stop the discussion, but does anyyone want to level anymore direct questions before Robin and I go?
Ralek Queso: you lost me there Debbie...
DebbieAnn Fairplay: Never Mind
Jenna Fairplay: posting events is only to help bring people together as far as income I can say I dont see that never have never will
Travis Lambert: Yes - Daniel..... quickly.....
Wynterfrost White: Frankly I dont see anything wrong with the current event listings
Cienna Samiam: If you take the logical progression of the philosophy Linden Labs repeatedly sets forth as the driving vision for this place...
Timmy Night: I would seriously consider an L$50 per listing fee
Barbarra Blair: Currently you need to be able to hosts lists events on land that they don't own.
Daniel Linden: The main issue should be resolved next week -- when your friends can post events.
Cienna Samiam: Nothing they do is intended to help you make money, it is all intended to help you organize and manage your information... whatever that may be.
Travis Lambert: I'm not sure that I'm making my point on the event gaming - exceeding the number of events per venue - and how big of an issue that is
Timmy Night: I agree, Travis
Travis Lambert: That issue, alone - is causing a lot of problems for smaller venues
Cienna Samiam: It is a huge issue. =/ I see a difference already.
Ralek Queso: are you going with the friend list instead of the allowed on land list?
Jenna Fairplay: I agree wiht cienna no money has ever been made from any of my events
Trimming Hedges: if you charge money for events, then you encourage commercial events
Wynterfrost White: how many land owners are actually lindens in dif nicks?
Timmy Night: And what the hell is wrong with commercial events?
Jenna Fairplay: to have fees will only benifit big venue owners and kill the small and new establishments
Sidra Stern: good questions wynt
Trimming Hedges: does it matter?
Timmy Night: Get off of this damn anti-business kick
Daniel Linden: Esate owner may use their access list -- everyone can use their 'Friends".
Barbarra Blair: THere is nothing wrong with commercial events, if they are fun.
Ralek Queso: you dont encourage any more than you do now since the events people attend cost the host money
indigo Wolfe: Many events are not set up to make money, such as discussions.....Agreed jenna!
DebbieAnn Fairplay: I think Commercial events should be sepereated from Game Events
Travis Lambert: That's not what i mean, Daniel
Dnate Mars: nothing, but why push out the non-commercial events?
Cocoanut Koala: there is nothing wrong with ANY events.
Travis Lambert: I mean -
Cocoanut Koala: and all events are commercial in some form.
Barbarra Blair: Also correct.
Trimming Hedges: I'm not anti-commercial, but I don't think we should slant the game TOWARD that either. If you want to make money doing SL, more power to you, have a blast
Cienna Samiam: wake up, Timmy - it isn't about being 'anti business'. It is about putting a stop to abuse of the system by those who think business is the only reason anything exists here.
Travis Lambert: If you are a large owner - even with these restrictions - you can work around it by deeding multiple 512's to multiple groups - and just place a teleporter there
Musimba Yellowknife: Actually, Discussion to provide traffic to the land owner
Travis Lambert: I can't do that - most folks can't do that
Trimming Hedges: but charging money for events is just a discouragement to those of us who aren't running events for $
Timmy Night: ALL events are advertisments for the properties they are held at
Dnate Mars: there are many events that are ment to get people to talk and discuss issues with eachother
Wags Manimal: I go to events to hang out and have fun. I hate to keep bringing up this point but SL is supposed to be about fun. when you limit what can be posted as events you limit everyone's fun
Cienna Samiam: Incorrect, Timmy. But I understand why you think that is the case.
Travis Lambert: Daniel - the problem is - some places can post 10 events while the rest of us can post 3
Daniel Linden: Travis, I understand your concern.
Musimba Yellowknife: LL is making SL less fun
Barbarra Blair: WEll, trimming's events will always fill up the sim, regardless.
Cocoanut Koala: i agree with wags
Jenna Fairplay: reganomics if we all remember how can any new or small establishment compete with larger ones with more fees more restrictions
Travis Lambert: kk - as long as you understand what i'm trying to relate - i feel better :P
Trimming Hedges: any system can be gamed. All I have to do is cubidivide my plot into 5, and get 5 friends, and I can have 15 events a day
Trimming Hedges: subdivide*
Daniel Linden: I do understand.
indigo Wolfe: Musimba, some of us have discussion because we enjoy discussion, not as a money making venture
Barbarra Blair: Rules always benefit the people who have the resources to get around them.
Timmy Night: Tell me how it is incorrect? I own a venue, I hold an event - my venue is advertised during the event, unless one closes their eyes
Dnate Mars: there are always ways around the system
Barbarra Blair: So let's have fewer rules!
DebbieAnn Fairplay: what happened to the limit per location rule?
Musimba Yellowknife: It's a side benefit I was mentioning
Travis Lambert: But this worksound that has sprung up, Dnate - benefits a particular minority of event holders
Trimming Hedges: these new rules won't stop the tringo flood
Wynterfrost White: It doesnt matter if the owner of land gets more money and more traffic, the events are there for us to decide which we want to go to
Cienna Samiam: You're entire slant on this is making money or raising your rating. You cannot understand what I would tell you, Timmy. Sorry.
Trimming Hedges: the fundamental PROBLEM is too much tringo
Barbarra Blair: TRingo is unstoppable
Trimming Hedges: and that's not being solved with this.
Cocoanut Koala: tringo will run its course, you don't HAVE to stop it, nor should you.
Barbarra Blair: Besides, I like tringo.
Wynterfrost White: events calendar
Dnate Mars: why do we want to stop the Triango flood?
Ralek Queso: why is too much tringo a problem?
Wags Manimal: Thank you Robin and Daniel. That's for the info and listening. I hope Robin gets that group running soon to come up with the new even'ts list
Ralek Queso: if you go to a tringo event it IS well attended
DebbieAnn Fairplay: nothing does.. TRINGO Gamea are like roachs... it just keeps coming and coming
Dnate Mars: people come, people play, people have fun?
Musimba Yellowknife: Tringo events had already started to decrease
Timmy Night: Are you calling me an idiot because I want to win the developers award?
Daniel Linden: Barbarra -- the old calendar had a pile of rules...definitions as to what made an 'event'...etc. etc....they were widely (if not completely) ignored...
Trimming Hedges: isn't that the problem that they're trying to solve:? 75% of the events are tringo, and they're obviously trying to cut down on the number of events in the calendar, ergo it appears tob e an attempt to stop tringo
Barbarra Blair: HMMM roach stomping, that would be a good event....
Baron Grayson: not stop it..jsut filter it to keep it off event listings of those that don';t want to see it
Cienna Samiam: No, I'm saying you can't hear what you don't want to hear.
Eanya Dalek: I think that if there is a charge to post events then you wont have to worry about an event calendar at all because there wont be any events
Barbarra Blair: Yes, ignore the rules! Down with rules!
Wynterfrost White: Why is tringo being attacked so much? Simply dont click on that event listing to look at it
Jenna Fairplay: when my venue posted events to simlar my evengts werre taken down and I spent days making theme events and making sure they offered a variety but I realize that like in rl venues each have their own purpose a water park, a club, a casino each offer
Wynterfrost White: Ive never played it, but the listing of it doesnt bother me
Travis Lambert: I don't like tringo myself - but i think its a genuine event some folks like
Trimming Hedges: I don't personally care that much, if people want to play it, I'm fine. But I think it is the tringo event flood that is prompting this whole mess
Baron Grayson: anything with majority event postings on the event list would be attacked
Jenna Fairplay: similar themes but they are apart from each other
Timmy Night: There are just as many tringo and slingo events as their once was
Musimba Yellowknife: A simple filter is all that is needed. Type in "Tringo" and anything with that term in the title or description is not shown in your personal events listing
DebbieAnn Fairplay: what makes you think not haveing a limit would fix the problem of too many of the same type of events?
Baron Grayson: before slingo tringo and bingo it was solely club attacks
Wags Manimal: I"m I the only one here who has NEVER played Tringo or Slingo??
Barbarra Blair: It used to be Bingo--before that it was acutions.
Travis Lambert: I've never played, Wags :P
Jenna Fairplay: I even host tringo *hides* but I made sure to keep it apart from my ther venue
Barbarra Blair: Next month is will be something new.
Heather Hathor: I've not played
Wynterfrost White: no wags, ive never played tringo
Cienna Samiam: Well, when people figure out that getting people to visit and stay with you has less to do with advertising and more to do with creating an atmosphere they enjoy and will be loyal to...
Costella Eisenberg: amen
Trimming Hedges: I've played it a few times, it's actually not a bad game at all. I am tired of seeing it fifty times a day though.
Daniel Linden: OK -- Robin and I need to step away! Thanks for coming, thanks for your feedback. We'll bump that number to five, and you'll hear more about the other fixes beginning next week!
Eanya Dalek: tringo is popular because it provides a community for social needs and a chance to make soem lindens
Travis Lambert: ok - thanks Daniel & Robin
Blake Rockwell: Ive playe it once
Barbarra Blair: Thanks Robin and Daniel--we really love this place, you know.
Dnate Mars: ok, bye robin, daniel
Cienna Samiam: Oh... Daniel... a moment.
Wags Manimal: Thanks Daniel, Robin
Baron Grayson: I'm sort of looking forward to attacks on educational venues when it's over 80 percent of the listings..oh god not another disertation on inworld economics or how to do alphas lol
Cienna Samiam: Briefly.
Daniel Linden: Have a great evening all -- I hope we've addressed some of your concerns....
Wynterfrost White: Thank you Daniel and Robin
Travis Lambert: Yes - I really do love Second Life as well
You: bye all . thanks for coming. I'll follow up with those of you who are interested in working on this further
DebbieAnn Fairplay: Thank you Daniel and Robin for your time
Musimba Yellowknife: Thanks for the Discussion. I expect as much from this one as the others.
Jenna Fairplay: Im at the point where small venues wish to sell out to me do I want that no I want to see them continue and make what they created succeed
Cocoanut Koala: thanks y'all